27th June 2024
bbc.co.uk/accessall
Access All – Election episode
04
Presented by Emma Tracey
EMMA- Hello,
I’m Emma Tracey and this is the BBC’s weekly disability and mental health
podcast. As part of Access All’s General Election coverage we have invited
representatives from the UK’s seven main political parties to take part over
several episodes. We’ve been putting your questions and your concerns to them,
and we’ve been exploring their policies around disability and mental health. On
this episode we speak to Mags Lewis from the Green Party; we interview Liz
Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymru; and we’ve got some analysis from the manifesto
or Reform UK who did not put someone forward for an interview.
MUSIC- Theme
music.
EMMA- First
up it’s Mags Lewis from the Green Party. Thanks for ing us, Mags.
MAGS- Thank
you. It’s a pleasure to be here.
EMMA- Now,
I’m going to give you 45 seconds, Mags Lewis, to tell us a bit about yourself.
Are you ready?
MAGS- Yes,
okay.
EMMA- Okay
go.
MAGS- Well,
I’m Mags Lewis. I’ve lived in Leicester since 2000 and I came here for work.
I’m a busy mum of two. I’ve got MS. And I’ve been involved in politics and the
Green Party since 2007. I think once I
had my daughters I just became a lot more environmentally conscious, and I was
pretty disappointed with the Labour Party having worked in the NHS and seen the
ruination of PFI, private finance initiative, and so I wanted to give something
back and work for political change for the environmental cause and social
justice.
EMMA- Okay,
thank you so much. That is quite hard thing to do Mags, in fairness, and I know
you’ve got MS which can involve brain fog and stuff like that, so thank you so
much for taking that challenge for me. We have some questions that we’re asking
all the different political parties and the first one of those is, how many
disabled candidates are the Green Party fielding this time?
MAGS- That’s
a good question. I’m not sure of the entire number because a lot of our people
they may have neurodiversity but they don’t necessarily identify as disabled,
so I don’t know off the top of my head how many of them are to be honest. I
mean, obviously I’m disabled and I know of at least five more candidates who do
have a disability, but I don’t know the overall number. But I would say it’s
fairly significant because we have quite an active disability group within the
Green Party.
EMMA- So,
the Disability Policy Centre thinktank has been doing some work on this and
they’re saying that so far it’s about 4% of candidates in general over all the
parties. Would you say you guys are more than 4%?
MAGS- Yes,
I would say so. Obviously I would have to do proper research, but I’m aware
that a lot of people who may identify as being neurodiverse etc, but wouldn’t
actually, as I say, identify necessarily as a disabled person. Obviously
disability is such a wide umbrella.
EMMA- Of
course, yes.
MAGS- So,
many people that may choose even not to declare it. Obviously with MS there are
some mental issues or, as you say, brain fog, but also there’s the physical
side. But even with MS so many people have a different journey, and I know I
didn’t identify as disabled for several years.
EMMA- That’s
a really good point. The next question that we’re asking everyone is, has your
manifesto been produced in different formats like easy read? We were spooking
to Mark Brookes recently who has a learning disability, and he was saying how
important that is. So, has your manifesto been produced in formats like easy
read, and has it been done at the same time as your regular manifesto?
MAGS- As
far as I’m aware it has. I mean, it’s quite an important issue for me. We’ve
worked hard as, I used to be a member of the disability committee, to try and
make sure that for example when we had conferences there were always signers
there etc. and we made it as disabled friendly as possible.
EMMA- But
you’re not certain?
MAGS- I
can certainly check, but as far as I’m aware it is as inclusive as possible.
EMMA- Well,
I have found an easy read version. I don’t know how to find it on the website,
but if I put it in the search box it does come up, so that is available as far
as I’m aware. Now, one of the things that so many of our listeners have been
writing about since we asked them to tell us what they want us to talk about in
relation to this General Election is Personal Independence Payments, disability
benefits and the fact that there was a consultation launched on changes that
might be made to that benefit a couple of weeks before the election was called.
I just wondered from the Green Party’s perspective what are you intending to do
around disability benefits? Because the welfare bill is going up, every party
recognises that. It’s a difficult one, isn’t it?
MAGS- Yes
it is. But one of the pledges within our manifesto is to restore the value of
disabled benefits, because I think we’ve recognised the disabled community is
being hit particularly hard so we want to raise them immediately by 5%. The
other thing we want to do is reform the punitive and intrusive eligibility
tests, because we’ve heard PIP has been reformed in the past but there always
seems to be a dot, dot, dot because there are people abusing the system or
they’re shirking etc. And then when you actually look at the number of people
who appeal and the appeals are upheld it just feels like it’s really designed
to cause as much stress as possible.
EMMA- The
rate of the welfare bill is going up so much though, and there are new people
applying for disability benefits all the time and more and more for lots of
different reasons. How would the Green Party fund the 5% rise that the
manifesto says is going to happen if you got into government?
MAGS- We’re
being probably the most honest [laughs] I would say of all the parties and
we’re saying we’re going to have seek tax rises. So, we’d be looking at
windfall tax on some fossil fuels etc. We’d also be looking at taxing the
billionaires, the most able to bear the tax at the top. So, we’ve got a
programme of doing that. So, I’m quite proud that we’re looking at that, we’re
saying that there’s an issue and we’re looking at who can best bear the taxes.
So, we’re looking at the windfall tax and then the highest earners.
EMMA- Let’s
talk about mental health now, Mags. You mentioned creating a legal framework
that s the rights of those struggling with their mental health to be
respected. What does that mean? What will that mean for people with mental
health difficulties in practical ?
MAGS- I
think it’s more about making sure that people understand what their rights are,
but also what’s out there in of being seen in a timely fashion. At the
moment everyone talks about the crisis in mental health and people aren’t able
to access the services they need, so it’s being a lot more clear about when
they should be accessing what they’re allowed, what they’re entitled to.
EMMA- Would
you bring in the Mental Health Bill or would you look at it quite differently
to that?
MAGS- I
don’t think there’s one size fits all. For me I think there’s been such an
onslaught from so many angles; we need to be looking at having a Mental Health
Bill, but also looking at how services are provided and the knock-ons of that,
and making sure even housing is accessible obviously from a physical point of
view, but also a mental health point of view as well.
EMMA- Yeah,
that’s interesting because I was reading about housing in your manifesto and in
the version I read for sure I didn’t see anything about disabled housing. And
that is something that a lot of people are very exercised about. It was on
local radio this week and someone was saying they hadn’t been able to have a
shower for four years.
MAGS- Yeah,
I’ve got a case in my constituency where we’ve got a gentleman who’s an amputee
and he can’t get a wheelchair in his home, and he has been told he has to
declare himself homeless to have any chance of getting up the housing ladder.
So, the Greens we want to build another 150,000 social houses a year, and part
of that we would be saying that we would want to make sure that a good
proportion of those at least were accessible.
EMMA- So,
basically you’re saying that you recognise that there’s a massive issue around
housing and disabled people and waiting lists and grants. In of education
you said you want to provide adequate in schools for neurodivergent
children and for children with SEND. That feels like that’s an entire change of
the education system, doesn’t it, in some ways; there’s so much going on there.
What would you propose to do?
MAGS- Well,
one of the things I’m really ionate about is the SEND transport for 16 to
18 year olds. So, at the moment councils should provide transport but they
don’t have to, and that’s a loophole. And so you’ve got families whose children
turn 16 and they’re being told no, you don’t qualify for your taxi anymore, you
have to get your child to your school. So, we’re saying we would change that to
make it that councils must provide transport for children from the age of 16 to
18 with special educational needs.
EMMA- What
about social care? You’re saying you’d provide free social care. Scotland has
that in but people still struggle to get the packages they need. In the UK we
speak to people all the time in England who struggle to renew their packages
and get the same level of care that they had, it goes down massively. I mean,
how would you fund that? It feels it’s a massive £20 billion you say you’d put
into that; where would that come from?
MAGS- Well,
again we’re going to be looking at raising taxes, but very much target it at
the rich and those who are most able to bear that. And we think it’s about
investing to save really, because at the moment people are on waiting lists for
so long and there’s so much bureaucracy, it’s costing the entire economy and
all of us and our mental health hugely. So, we need to be doing things much
earlier and that will be overall more cost effective and better for people.
EMMA- Finally,
Mags Lewis, in a nutshell what will the Green Party be offering for disabled
people on 4th July?
MAGS- We’ll
be offering a really positive package of and care for people to be able
to live the lives that we all deserve to live, because at the moment we’re
being vilified, there seems to be a lot of distrust. So, I’m really excited
about the offer for disabled people. And as I’m a disabled person I’m really
pleased to be a Green Party member and standing for election.
EMMA- Mags
Lewis from the Green Party thank you for ing me.
MAGS- Pleasure.
EMMA- Listening
to that interview with Mags Lewis from the Green Party was Kate Lamble. Kate is
from More or Less, our sister podcast which tries to make sense of the numbers
around us. She’s heard the interview and she’s been looking into how it all
adds up:
KATE- So,
when Mags Lewis was talking about housing she said the Green Party wanted to
build 150,000 social homes a year, a good proportion of which will be
accessible. Now, with these pledges we’ve got to bear in mind that the current government
has previously struggled with house building, consistently missing the targets
it set itself in 2019. And that’s something which has in the past been put down
partially to issues with the planning system. In fact in 2022/23, once we take
into demolished homes, only around 270,000 homes were built or created
by refurbishment across the UK. And less than a third of the homes created in
England were classed as affordable, let alone social, so there would likely be
a huge challenge to achieve this.
But the
bigger issue with this claim is, despite what Mags said, the Green Party’s
manifesto doesn’t actually promise to build 150,000 social homes a year, just
to provide them. And it specifically includes ideas to allow local authorities
to buy or refurbish older housing stock instead of building new ones. Now, of
course older homes are less likely to have been built at a time when
accessibility regulations applied, and so without work they might be less
accessible in of, say, door width, plug height and other things which are
today kept in mind.
EMMA- Thanks
to Kate Lamble there for her analysis of the Green Party’s plans. Now, Kate
will be back after this interview with Liz Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymru:
Hi
Liz, and you’re very welcome to Access All.
LIZ- Hi, Emma. It’s
great to be invited to you.
EMMA- You’ve
got 45 seconds, Liz, to tell us about you.
LIZ- Okay,
I’m originally from London. I’m the first woman ever elected for Plaid Cymru.
In relation to disabilities I use hearing aids now, which actually can be quite
challenging. And we firmly believe in fairness and ambition for people in Wales
and to make sure that Wales is properly funded to enable people who need
to live lives that they deserve.
EMMA- Thank
you very much. That’s below the 45 seconds but if you’re finished that’s
totally fine. How many disabled candidates are Plaid Cymru fielding for this
election? Actually the Disability Policy Centre says zero, but you’ve already
told me that you use hearing aids, so.
LIZ- Well,
I use hearing aids. We’ve certainly been encouraging disabled candidates. We
have a disabled group Plaid Cymru Anabledd for which we’re trying to develop
people to come forward. But I recognise that it is challenging for us and it is
something that as a party we should be making every effort to make sure that
people can come forward.
EMMA- Okay.
And your manifesto has it been created in different formats and at the same
time as your printed or regular manifesto comes out?
LIZ- I
believe that it is available for better accessibility online. And when we
launched our manifesto of course we had somebody there who was doing signage as
well.
EMMA- Now,
your manifesto says that you’re planning to deal with the waiting lists for
neurodiverse diagnosis and cut those down, and give more to people as
they present themselves as neurodivergent and if they’re referred by a medical
person or if they self-refer. How would you go about doing that and how would
you fund it?
LIZ- To
take a step back with the funding of course, because this is crucial for many
aspects of health and for disabled people in Wales, we would
argue very strongly that Wales is not funded according to need. We have what is
called the Barnett Formula, it’s been in place since the late 70s; we’re always
being told that Wales is funded to a greater level per head than England, this
is true, but we’re not funded as highly as, say, London is. And also very
recently there’s been a step towards addressing needs-based question with the
funding for Northern Ireland. Now, for Wales this is highly significant because
we have an older population, we also have health issues that are common to
post-industrial communities. And if Wales were funded according to need that
would then enable us to boost our NHS. There are other questions in relation to
the NHS as well and the priority that is accorded to patients and patient’s
needs, which I think isn’t just a matter of funding, it’s a matter of culture
and approach. But nonetheless we really want to see this shift happening
towards recognise patient’s needs and people who present with neurodiversity.
And as things stand they’re not best served. But of course we need the funding,
and then we need to recruit those staff , the actual clinicians, the
health , the care staff that we need to enable this.
EMMA- We
hear a lot of stories here on Access All about of our audience, our
listeners waiting for a long time for diagnosis and not hearing anything or
getting what they need while they’re waiting. Would this be some sort of a
pathway? How would the policy work?
LIZ- Believe
me the questions, and I get this with obviously a whole range of health
conditions when I’m out canvassing as I am, when I’m not talking to you today,
and this sense of frustration – I’m sure this isn’t just Wales alone, so I’m
speaking about the area that I know – but this sense that the patient is not
foremost in the way that health services are provided. And then the
implications of that for those people’s lives being so immense. There is something
about the culture, and I can only speak here about Wales, but that sense of you
have to wait so long before you even get into the system, and then you cannot
people, you can’t find out what the results of your tests are. Just to speak
of my own hearing aids now, since the COVID era if I have to have another
hearing test I have to wait six months before I have another hearing test.
EMMA- Can
we talk about mental health? Because that’s something else we speak about a lot
on the podcast, and listeners have been getting in touch with us for a few
years now about the Mental Health Bill that has been consulted on, has been we
thought it was about ready to go. And you have said that you would the
reform of the Mental Health Act as it is. What would that mean for people in
Wales?
LIZ- We
are very concerned in the way that people with learning disabilities
particularly can be sectioned and then placed into hospital settings which are
not appropriate for them. That’s something that we can see is happening in
Wales because the right sort of isn’t there. Frankly, this is a breach
of human rights in the way that this is being used. And I’ve also seen actually
the way that people with mental health issues get brought into the criminal
justice system as a result for, say, mental health wards just not being able to
cope with people, and that being inappropriate on occasions, well very often
quite frankly. So, how we deal with people, how we people, avoiding
this what should be the absolute last stage, the last resort of the criminal
justice system is I think quite crucial.
EMMA- How
will you do it? And how long will it take, do you think, to make that better?
LIZ- That’s
the million dollar question, isn’t it? Again, it’s a cultural approach. If
you’re dealing with health boards who are just using this as a way of engaging
with their own staff and engaging with people’s needs from the patient’s, from
the individual’s needs point of view, rather than approach that possibly this
is a way of getting them off our books, off our responsibility, off our cost
and onto somebody else. There’s a shift that needs to go back into prioritising
the best interests of individuals and away from the best interests of public
sector organisations. It has worsened since COVID frankly.
EMMA- That’s
so interesting, you mentioned the COVID-19 pandemic quite a lot, and actually
none of the other party representatives has mentioned it in our interviews, so
I find that really interesting. And another big effect was on employment during
that time. Wales has quite a big disability employment gap, doesn’t it? How
would tackle that and how would you get more disabled people in Wales who can
work and who want to work into work?
LIZ- I’ve
just been looking today at statutory sick pay, of course you have to be at the
threshold of I think it’s £123 a week even to be eligible for that. And we know
that this particularly affects women and that it particularly affects I think
there’s about a million workers in the UK who don’t qualify for statutory sick
pay, and of course a third of those are disabled. So, if you’re facing a
prospect of are you going to have to stay in work even if you’re ill, we need
these mechanisms, the safety nets.
EMMA- So,
you would up statutory sick pay and change the parameters?
LIZ- It
always surprises me that there is a threshold whereby it’s evidently the
poorest people in work are going to be the ones who are going to be worst
affected, least ed by statutory sick pay.
EMMA- Okay.
Now let’s talking about the cost of living and the cost of living crisis. It’s
really disproportionately affected disabled people, as I’m sure you will know.
What would Plaid Cymru do for disabled people in Wales?
LIZ- We
have to find a way now of reducing energy costs within certain communities.
Now, Ofgem to me has a duty at addressing standing charges, because what I do
not understand why the energy companies should be able to charge less where the
population is higher. Because of course it’s cheaper for them, but that then
disproportionately affects some communities which may well be amongst some of
the poorest communities in the United Kingdom. I’m talking about North Wales
and Merseyside.
EMMA- So,
the regulator has a job to do?
LIZ- The
regulator has a job in making sure that those at the energy companies, who of
course should also be fair, paying windfall taxes when they’re making
extraordinary amounts of money on the backs of customers. We should also be
looking I think, and this is quite an exciting I think here locally, about
those areas which produce energy. And I have one scheme up here in Northwest
Wales, a hydroelectric scheme, working with the energy retailing company,
Octopus, where the energy that is produced from this hydro scheme is sold to
customers, consumers locally more cheaply. Now, that’s really exciting.
EMMA- So,
that’s a good example?
LIZ- That’s
a really good example.
EMMA- Liz
Saville Roberts, you’ve been with me for around ten minutes, tell me in summary
what will Plaid Cymru be offering disabled Welsh voters on 4th July?
LIZ- I
think firstly from Plaid Cymru we will never treat disabled people as a
political punchbag, which is what we have seen happening in this General
Election. We will continue to challenge disability discrimination, and we will
make sure the voices of people with disabilities and neurodiverse communities
those voices will come through. So, fundamentally we believe in that
comionate system. And then of course we have to say more than that; we have
to find ways of making sure that people get a better service through the health
service, that their cost of living, the costs that they face are as affordable
for them. And that as a society as a whole we look, it is a real old Welsh
tradition, that everybody in the community, ing each other according to
their needs. And it’s essential that we get people’s voices through, and it’s
essential that we reject these politics of divisiveness, of demonising people
when we should be ing them within society.
EMMA- Liz
Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymru, thank you so much for ing me on Access
All.
Kate
Lamble is back now from More or Less to tell us how those plans from Plaid
Cymru add up:
KATE- Okay,
Liz Saville Roberts was talking there about funding, and she says Wales is
funded less well than London. Government figures do show us how much public
funding different areas of the UK receive per person. It shows Wales receiving
£13,967 per person, which is lower than Scotland and Northern Ireland, but 11%
above the UK average. England as a whole receives £12,227 per person, so Wales
is above every English region apart from London. London gets £14,486 in public
spending per person, and per resident that is the highest in the UK. However,
we’ve always got to think about what drives this spending. For example, water
companies are in the public sector in Scotland and Northern Ireland but not in
England and Wales. And part of London’s high figure is because the capital,
ironically or not, receives the highest capital spending in the UK. This
investment largely driven by spending on transport and in particular the
railways, which benefits not just people who live in London but those who
travel in to work. If we excluded that and we only looked at current
expenditure on services then Wales has higher funding per resident than London,
even though it’s historically been more expensive to hire staff and provide
services in the capital. And we’ve got to that per head London pays
twice as much as Wales into the public purse. Rightly or wrongly our economy
relies quite heavily on London, so it’s perhaps not surprising that it receives
a significant chunk of funding.
EMMA- Thanks
to Kate Lamble there for her analysis. And Kate will be back after BBC
political correspondent, David Cornock’s rundown of Reform UK’s manifesto:
MUSIC-
EMMA- Now,
we asked for a representative from Reform UK to take part in our election
special interviews, but they didn’t have anyone available to come and talk to
us. So, instead the BBC’s political correspondent, David Cornock, is with me
from Millbank to talk about what the Reform Party have in their pledges for
disabled people for this General Election. David, thank you so much for ing
me on Access All.
DAVID- It’s
a pleasure. Great to be here.
EMMA- And
David, you have been reading through the Reform UK manifesto, what have they
got in there for disabled people and people with mental health difficulties?
DAVID- Well,
it’s an interesting manifesto because first of all they refuse to call it a
manifesto because Nigel Farage says that manifesto means lie and people don’t
trust the promises in a manifesto. So, his programme, if you like, his contract
with you the voter gives an outline really of what Reform are about. And that
means maybe fewer detailed policies for individuals and others, but more a hint
at their sort of philosophy, where they’re coming from.
EMMA- Well,
David, it sounds like there’s nothing or very little specifically about
disability in this what they’re calling a contract. Apart from I believe there
is one mention in the area of benefits. Now, our audience are very anxious
about potential changes to the disability benefits and out-of-work benefits.
They have been told many times that the welfare bill needs to come down. What
is Reform saying about this?
DAVID- Well,
Reform do want to reduce the welfare bill. They say that the benefit system is
broken and would need change within the first 100 days. They want to get more
people on benefits to find work. They say that they would change benefit
and training to help people back into work, which they say would be
critical to improving mental health. Now, in of other benefits Personal
Independence Payments, PIPs, and Work Capablity_ Assessment, those assessments
should be face-to-face say Reform UK. And the manifesto or the contract with
you says, will require independent medical assessments to prove eligibility for
payment, but those ed with severe disabilities or serious long-term
illnesses would be exempt from regular checks. Now, that’s about as detailed as
it goes, but you can sense the direction of travel there from Reform UK.
EMMA- Absolutely.
And people would worry about face-to-face assessments, people who struggle to
leave the house etc. Now, Reform have focused in quite a lot on the Equality
Act, which is how disabled people might bring a disability discrimination case.
What have they said about that?
DAVID- Well,
they would scrap it, this is the 2010 Equality Act, and according to Reform UK
this act requires discrimination in the name of positive action. So, they would
scrap it. They would scrap diversity, equality and inclusion rules that they
say have lowered standards and reduced economic productivity. So, again a
limited amount of detail in this programme, but you get where they’re coming
from on that I think.
EMMA- Another
topic I’ve been talking a lot to the other parties about is social care. There
are massive issues around that for disabled people who need personal care
assistants at home. What are Reform UK saying that they would do to change that
system?
DAVID- Well,
what Reform UK would do would be to commence what they call a royal commission
of enquiry into the social care system. Now, royal commissions we’ve had them
in the past, they’re sort of grand committees of the great and the good to look
on a non-partisan basis at these sorts of issues. Fair to say that when it
comes to social care we’ve had commissions before commissioned, I think there
was one under Tony Blair’s government, there was one under David Cameron’s
government, looked into social care, put forward some very concrete proposals,
which turned out to be quite expensive and complicated, and that means they
haven’t really been delivered since then. But certainly Reform UK think that if
they set up another royal commission maybe it would deliver.
EMMA- David,
it’s a real shame that Reform UK couldn’t put anyone forward for this
interview. But I’ve been asking the other parties what they would do to fix how
disabled children get extra help at school. Was there anything mentioned about
that in the Reform manifesto?
DAVID- Well,
that is obviously a very big issue in of for children with
special educational needs and disabilities. There is nothing in Reform’s
manifesto on that, but it does say that critical educational reforms are needed
in the first 100 days. And their priority would be what they call a patriotic
curriculum in primary and secondary schools in England, and they talk about
teaching past British and European imperialism, and they would also ban transgender
ideology in primary and secondary schools, with no gender questioning and so
on. So, you get an indication there of Reform’s priorities, but they don’t
appear to include issues with children who have special educational needs and
disabilities.
EMMA- David
Cornock, BBC political correspondent, thank you for ing me on Access All.
MUSIC-
EMMA- Thank
you to Liz Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymru, and also to Mags Lewis from the
Green Party. Thanks go to David Cornock, BBC’s political correspondent for
talking to me about Reform UK’s manifesto. And thanks also go to Kate Lamble
from More or Less who analysed all the facts and figures. We already have
episodes on your Access All feed with the Conservative Party, the Labour Party,
the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National Party.
Well,
that’s it from our political party interviews. I hope that we have given you
some insight into what each party is thinking in of disability and mental
health. If you’ve anything to say about the interviews we’ve put on your feed
this week please do get in touch in all the usual ways. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, you can get us on
WhatsApp on 0330 123 9480, and you can find us on social media, we’re on X and
we’re on Instagram @BBCAccessAll. Thanks for listening. Goodbye.
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ADAM- Hello,
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